Brooks and Capehart on states blocking Trump from ballot – PBS NewsHour
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New York Times columnist David Brooks and Washington Post associate editor Jonathan Capehart join Geoff Bennett to discuss the week in politics, including the backlash around Nikki Haley’s comments on the causes of the Civil War, the question of whether Donald Trump should be barred from the 2024 ballot and 2023’s political highlights.
Notice: Transcripts are machine and human generated and lightly edited for accuracy. They may contain errors.
Geoff Bennett:
And for more on the question of whether Donald Trump should be barred from the 2024 ballot, as well as some reflections on the past year in politics, we turn to Brooks and Capehart. That’s New York Times columnist David Brooks, and Jonathan Capehart, associate editor for The Washington Post.
Good to see you both.
Jonathan Capehart:
Hey, Geoff.
David Brooks:
Good to see you.
Geoff Bennett:
So, as we have just reported, Maine has joined Colorado as the second state to ban Donald Trump from its presidential primary ballot under a constitutional provision that prevents insurrectionists from holding office.
David, what’s your assessment of this decision by Maine’s secretary of state?
David Brooks:
Yes, I thought Colorado was pretty terrible. And I think this is an even worse threat to democracy, some random Democratic politician throwing the Republican front-runner off the ballot for a crime, as you said in one of your questions, he’s not even convicted of, he hasn’t even been charged with.
The process should always be, voters decide, voters decide. It should be that doubly when we have an entire democratic system is under a crisis of authority and people don’t trust it. They think the game is rigged. If suddenly you have random people throwing people off the ballot, they’re going to think, oh, the game really is rigged.
And then if you have one Democrat throwing a candidate off the ballot in Maine, do you really think some Republicans aren’t going to start throwing people off the ballot somewhere else? It’s just — I just thought it was a terrible decision and one that confirms every story that Donald Trump tells, which is those liberal elites are out to get you.
And, suddenly — I don’t know if she’s a liberal elite, but somebody’s out to silence your voice.
Geoff Bennett:
Jonathan, what about that, the argument that this is election interference of a different source?
(Laughter)
Jonathan Capehart:
My gosh, David.
I don’t buy it. The idea that this is a cabal of liberal elites attacking democracy, going after Donald Trump, is ridiculous, one, because these challenges are being brought by Republicans. There are Republicans who are trying to keep Donald Trump off the Republican primary ballot. That is definitely the case in Colorado.
And the same people who brought that case are involved in all the other cases. The other thing is that these aren’t random — the Maine secretary of state is not some random official. This is someone who didn’t just make up this decision out of whole cloth. She had a hearing a week ago, an eight-hour-long hearing, where she had all sorts of briefs, all sorts of testimony, and she came to her decision.
The key thing here is that this case is going to go before the Supreme Court, because the one thing the Supreme Court does not like is dissonance within the country. You have got Colorado and Maine saying he’s got to be off the ballot. You have Michigan, and I believe today California said Trump is on the ballot. You can’t have a hodgepodge of decisions around the country involving something this major.
So the Supreme Court is going to have to decide this case. And, as the Minnesota secretary of state said to me last weekend, he sees the Supreme Court deciding unanimously either all states have to have him on the ballot or all states have to have him off the ballot.
But there’s not going to be this split-the-baby decision.
Geoff Bennett:
How do you think the court might weigh this?
David Brooks:
Yes, we have an island of agreement among us.
(Laughter)
(Crosstalk)
David Brooks:
Yes, no, I would be shocked if it’s not — I don’t know if it would 9-0, but I would be shocked if the Supreme Court took Donald Trump’s name off the ballot anywhere.
The last thing the court, which already has its own credibility problems, wants to do is be seen to tell 75 million Americans, the guy you want to vote for, you can’t vote for that guy. That would create some sort of democratic crisis in our country.
Geoff Bennett:
Jonathan, how much weight do you give that question, though, of why can one person, in this case in Maine, make a determination for thousands of voters as to Donald Trump’s political future?
Jonathan Capehart:
Well, that’s a matter of state law. I mean, elections — the rules in all these states, the reason why we’re having these hodgepodge — these hodgepodge of decisions is because elections are run by the states, and they have their own laws.
And, in Maine, the secretary of state makes a determination and then it goes to the courts. So this is not the end in Maine. This is the beginning in Maine.
Geoff Bennett:
Well, as this decision came down yesterday from Maine, Nikki Haley was in New Hampshire, Donald Trump’s ascendant rival there, trying to clean up a response she gave when she was asked by a person at a town hall you see there in New Hampshire about, what was the cause of the Civil War?
And she did not name slavery in her response. And, after much backlash, she later said, of course it had to do with slavery.
David, what did you make of her initial comment and then her attempt to clean it up and clarify?
David Brooks:
Yes, Republican presidential candidates should not be disagreeing with Lincoln’s second inaugural. Lincoln knew this was a war about slavery.
For 30 years, we had the war. America was split over slavery. Then the war happened. It was about slavery. Slavery ended with the war. I like Ron DeSantis’ line that the — ending slavery was one of the Republican Party’s greatest accomplishments ever.
And so I think what was disturbing about her comment was that it had the aroma of somebody playing political games from South Carolina, that you have come from a state where a lot of people don’t want to say it was about slavery. They want to say it was about random civil rights or whatever.
And then she had that voice in her head, and she thought the politically calculated thing to do was to give the answer she gave, rather than the honest truth. And that is a bad moment for her.
Geoff Bennett:
Yes.
What about that, that her remarks suggest her reading of the audience, that they would object to her saying flatly and plainly that, yes, it had to do with slavery?
Jonathan Capehart:
Yes, I agree with that. And I agree with David.
The only thing I would say is that it’s not an aroma. It’s a stench.
(Laughter)
Jonathan Capehart:
I mean, she is the former governor of South Carolina, the first state to secede from the union which was — led to the Civil War over slavery, a state that had a proclamation in 1860 that said flat out, we don’t — the non-enslaving states are trying to make us give up slavery.
So, for her to do what she did, especially after what she did after the massacre in Charleston at Mother Emanuel, probably her biggest moment on the national stage, and certainly as governor of South Carolina, stepping up and being a leader and taking down the Confederate Flag, for her to backtrack like this, I shouldn’t be surprised, because she’s backtracked on a lot of statements of principle, especially when she got in league with Donald Trump.
Geoff Bennett:
Well, Chris Christie agrees with you. Here’s what he told New Hampshire voters about this earlier this week.
FMR. GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R-NJ), Presidential Candidate: She didn’t say what she said last night and today about this because she’s dumb. She’s not. She’s smart. And she knows better.
And she didn’t say it because she’s a racist, because she’s not. I know her well, and I don’t believe Nikki has a racist bone in her body. But for purposes of this race, the reason she did it is just as bad, if not worse, and should get everybody concerned about her candidacy. She did it because she’s unwilling to offend anyone by telling the truth.
Geoff Bennett:
So, what about that? I mean, he’s saying that she equivocates and pulls her punches for political gain. How damaging will something like that be to her standing in New Hampshire?
David Brooks:
First, it’s a lesson that young viewers to major in history, because our first two topics about the Insurrection Act and the Civil War, so you should major in history.
(Crosstalk)
(Laughter)
David Brooks:
We’re still living with the Civil War legacies, clearly.
Geoff Bennett:
Yes.
David Brooks:
I don’t think it’ll end up hurting her. I think the people who are voting for her in New Hampshire, or say they’re going to be voting for New Hampshire are doing it as an anti-Trump, and maybe they kind of like her, and maybe they will have a moment of pause.
And she got a lot of big bucks from a lot of rich people. And maybe they will have a moment of pause. But compared to Donald Trump, stupid, insensitive, terrible comments will not be deterrents, because Donald Trump produces those by the minute.
Geoff Bennett:
Well, on this final Friday of 2023, I want to get your reflections on the major political threads and themes of the year.
Jonathan, you first.
Jonathan Capehart:
Oh, of course, you got to come to me first.
(Laughter)
Jonathan Capehart:
Look, we have gone — we have been through it in 2023, and it’s only going to get bumpier, I think, in 2024.
We have got two huge constitutional questions that are about to come before the Supreme Court, one, ballot access, and the other one is presidential immunity. We have never been in a situation where those — where the Supreme Court has had to even entertain these questions.
And the ramifications of that for the 2024 election means that — we say this every four years. This is the most important election of our lifetime. But, quite honestly, 2024 could be the most important election, because it could be the last democratic, small-D democratic, election this country ever has.
And that’s the one thing that gives me pause about 2024.
Geoff Bennett:
David, how about you?
David Brooks:
Yes, I mean, we have emphasized all year how terrible the political system is right now. And, as Jonathan said, next year is probably going to be worse.
But, to me, our national situation has been salved, S-A-L-V-E-D, by the strength of the economy, by a lot of good things that are happening underneath politics. So, economic growth is phenomenal right now. Unemployment is low. Inflation is down. Income inequality is down. Wages are up. Real wages are up.
And so if — it was not predicted that we would reduce this inflation without sliding into recession, and we seem to be doing it. And if we had not, if we had just fallen into 7 percent unemployment, 10 percent, can you imagine where the country would be?
So, just to pay tribute maybe to the Fed or…
(Laughter)
David Brooks:
But somebody. The economy is really good.
And the best thing is, America is not a country in decline. Our economy is outpacing Europe, Japan, China now. And so there are underlying good forces in America that were all wounded by how Donald Trump wants us to feel every day. But there’s a lot of good coming, including, except for in Washington, D.C., really rapidly decreasing crime rates.
And so there’s just a lot of decent fundamentals in this society.
Geoff Bennett:
Well, we will end on that hopeful note.
(Laughter)
Geoff Bennett:
David Brooks and Jonathan Capehart, thanks for an incredible year, and we will see you again next year.
Jonathan Capehart:
Thanks, Geoff. Yes.
David Brooks:
We will here.
Geoff Bennett:
All right, take care.
Jonathan Capehart:
All right.
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Geoff Bennett Geoff Bennett
Geoff Bennett serves as co-anchor of PBS NewsHour. He also serves as an NBC News and MSNBC political contributor.
Saher Khan Saher Khan
Saher Khan is a reporter-producer for the PBS NewsHour.
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